And they wonder why we do it.

As I was going through the pages linking to this one, I came across a pingback from virginworlds linking to a blog featuring someone that seemed to be quite upset about suicide ganks, i chose to reply to this post (incidentally, it’s one of those guys that moderates replies, so expect my reply to disappear shortly after this) to try and explain how it’s hardly certain death when gankers attack.

The original blog was located here, but I will reproduce the exchange here for your pleasure:

THE BLOG ENTRY:

The point to all this is that there are some games that I want to love playing, but just can’t. Sometimes these games are such that I really do enjoy playing them but there is some factor that make me feel about as welcome as  “skin head” at a bar mitzvah.

Eve online is one of those games.

Despite what some of our learned readers and listeners may insist, pvp in Eve Online is not consensual. Far from it in fact. It was not that long ago I wrote an article for Virgin Worlds called “consenting adults and other Eve Online PvP Myths.”  Now don’t mistake my disappointment for disapproval.  In fact where CCP is concerned it is quite the reverse in my opinion – the devs at CCP are (at least as far as game mechanics are concerned) by far one of the best development teams out there.

The big “But” (no not mine) is this: if there is any game out there in the internet global village that is the equivalent of the lawless wild west, Eve Online is it.  There is very little that the devs at CCP consider against the rules.  Isk selling? Sure, as long as the source is CCP.  Players who scam other players out of months or real time hard work? It’s all part of the game. I can put up with all that, but for me the whole “That’s three” was non-consensual pvp.  And now, it seems, the dung is starting to hit the proverbial fan if only in some small way. Here is a quote from one of my regular reads, The Ancient Gaming Noob (see below). You can read the full article here:

“Gangs of suicide gankers in destroyers have been roving the asteroid belts hunting Hulks for sport.  We just can’t seem to get away from suicide gankers in EVE, no matter  what anybody says.  Some people just find it too much fun.” – The Ancient Gaming Noob

And here, (in its most recent incarnation) is the source of the angst of which the Ancient Gaming Noob wrote.

Now for those of you who aren’t “in the know” where Eve Online is concerned, a Hulk is what is called a “Tech 2″ ship.  It involves a great deal of time and money to buy or make or both – millions, upon millions of isk. The hitch is this – although you may have heard that ships can be insured in Eve Online, the truth of the matter is that a Tech 2 ship can only be insured for a tiny small fraction of what it costs, including the fittings (which can’t be insured at all).

Everyone who has ever played Eve Online will tell you, “Don’t fly what you can’t afford to lose.” The problem is, you should at least be safe in high sector space.  There should be some part of the game where you can pve without being killed by players who live off the misery of others.

There was a time when CCP sais they would take action on this. Here is a statement from an article over at Massively.com from August 2008 (Thanks Michael for the correction):

”CCP Fear states: ‘We have been looking at suicide ganking and overall security standing issues, and how these features affect the general landscape of EVE. We are not happy with the current ease of suicide ganking and the relative ‘no hassle’ it has become. In many cases, unsuspecting victims have no chance to escape, nor any help from CONCORD. We want to change this.’” – via Massively.

In the end, not much has changed between when CCP Fear made the statement and this day.  Even if they had, those who are determined enough will find a way around said changes.  As a Hulk pilot myself (at least until about a week ago) between corporate war declarations and threat of suicide ganks perhaps I had found my Hulk a virtual prisoners in space dock once too often.

There will always be players like the imbeciles who organize suicide gankings. Why do they do it? Certainly not for the money, as blowing up someone else’s much more expensive ship, knowing you will lose yours to the “in game police” (called concord) mere moments later only costs you money.  There is a line in the recent Batman movie called “The Dark Knight” where Alfred the Butler (in the personage of the great actor Michael Caine) says “Some men just want to see the world burn.”  The sad truth is that if you get enough gamers together in one place there will always be at least a few assholes out to enjoy themselves by ruining the game for other players.

Now it is at this juncture that some of my readers may point out things like “it’s just a game” and that is true.  But the players who live off the misery of others, especially those who find ways to circumvent game mechanics, have a much more far reaching affect than that. Long run, if enough players leave a game, because of it, those same players could find themselves with no one to prey on but themselves. Eve Online doesn’t have much in the way of competition now, but Star Trek Online is just around the corner (Yes I am fully aware that are some players don’t consider it direct competition).

However, that is far from what I hope happens

What I hope happens is that the devs at CCP finally take a bit of a firm hand in things (something they are known for NOT doing) and resolve the situation.  PvP is great and I am a big PvP fan – .just so long as both parties participating in it agree to it – And agreeing to it DOESN’T happen simply by logging on to Eve Online.  However, as Michael points out in the comments to this article, if there is anyone who can “Square that particular Circle” CCP can – I just hope it doesn’t take too long.

See you online,

Julie Whitefeather

MY REPLY:

Very classy, calling people that organize suicide ganks “imbeciles”.

Who is the imbecile here? The people playing outlaws that will go above and beyond the law for any sort of financial gain, or the AFK miner that is not even near his ship when he is attacked?

I understand your bias, but I would point out that EVE is marketed as a dark and dangerous place, furthermore, it’s incredibly easy -not- to get ganked while mining.

I organize hulkageddon, but I ALSO have a hulk pilot myself. Simply by being AT my computer when I mine, and observing the local channel and being ready to turn on my tank and/or warp out I have eluded two suicide ganks myself.

We are agitating against players that believe they should make large amounts of ingame money without actually being at their desk and playing the damned game. “But mining is so boring!” Well, that’s CCP’s fault, not ours.

We have destroyed hulks fitted with incredibly expensive faction tanks that would have easily weathered our attack had they been present at the keyboard; and indeed during the first hulkageddon several -active- players handily avoided death at the gankers’ hands.

As far as I can tell, your understandable bias has coloured your words, but it is a mistake to call people names for an activity they pursue within the allowed game mechanics, if that bothers you so much, then it’s just not the game for you. YOUR opinions are meaningless to what the people running the game allow/disallow.

as CCP put it: HTFU, this is now hello kitty online, this is the dark dog-eat-dog world of EVE, this is why we love it, if you can’ t take that sort of heat, then stay out of the kitchen.

AND NOW THE EMO TEARS:

Here we go gang…time for Julie to sharpen her ruler.

@ Helicity Boson: You are quite correct in that I should not have called “people” who organized the ganks of miners “imbeciles”. I probably should not have inferred you are in imbecile either.

After all, it’s not your fault that it took you this long to respond – we respect the fact that someone with your obvious Neaderthal-like intellect took this long to develop the ability to read. We congratulate you on developing the ability to read and taking a moment to surface to reality long enough to respond nearly two months after your bout of living off the misery of others in a feeble attempt to boost your own sagging ego.

“We have destroyed hulks fitted with incredibly expensive faction tanks…”

Why does this sound suspiciously like Hitler marching in to Poland beaming with pride at the good he has done for the world. What good do you feel you have done the world in getting together a bunch of thugs whose totaled IQ wouldn’t exceed a box of hammers so that they can work off their anger at having to shovel their moms sidewalk and actually having to come up out of the basement when their mom calls time for dinner?

You live in some pathetic fantasy world where you feel the universe rotates around you and you are somehow teaching players a “lesson” when all you are doing is trying to make up for the fact you have an inferiority complex the size of a third world nation.

Finding a way to circumvent game mechanics (for that is all that you have done here) to ruin somebody else’s participation doesn’t do anything other than point how feeble your intellect is, and how Neanderthal-like is your “we be teaching them a lesson boys…get yer ropes, yer hound dogs, and your white hoods…we is gonna have us a hanging” mentality.

Thank you for providing us with the opportunity to personally tell you what a pathetic hunk of anthropomorphic swamp gunk your actions portray you as. Let’s hope you are a much better person in real life – in game you are a waste of skin.

Got anything else to say? I don’t hide behind pseudonyms. Say what you want spell the name right. That’s…

JULIE WHITEFEATHER

MY FINAL REPLY (not approved at this time)

haha oh wow, you are really really upset. You can call me names or attempt to demean my intellect as much as you like, *I* dont get this infuriated over what, when all is said and done, is just a game.

This is not the first time I notice that the so-called carebear breed of player takes it all so damned seriously, while the outlaw parties tend to view things in a more game-like perspective. We lose ships that are much more expensive than hulks with som regularity, and we tend to shrug it off, as we -know- the following truth about EVE online:

-barring a disconnect or game crash, every ship you lose is ALWAYS your OWN fault-

I dont see why you feel the need to agitate so violently over a game, it doesn’t really seem indicative of a balanced and well-rounded adult personality. Suck it up, take a deep breath and keep on trucking. it’s NO BIG DEAL.

Honestly, I’m positive if you look at the deluge of insults you just let slip in a more calm state will agree that was largely out-of-line.

regards,

Helicity

And there we have it, people blame us criminals and pretend we are not right in the head, but when you look at this… well, i guess we know where the really unhinged types hang around huh?

First one to kill julie and bring me her killmail and frozen corpse will get a special prize :D

Edit: After closing off the comments in a surpeme show of not-acting-your-age we are left with the image of this goddess to entertain us: http://noprisonersnomercy.com/about/

So there you have it, in the eyes of fucked up middle aged women, ganking internet spaceships = killing six million jews.

Fucked up world we live in…

36 Responses to “And they wonder why we do it.”

  1. [...] And they wonder why we do it. [...]

  2. i’ll add another 25 mil (should be enough to cover any suicide ship :) ) upon helicity confirming receiving the corpse

    contact me ingame when its done -_-

  3. HulkPilot001 Says:

    One point that Ms Whitefeather did not mention is that you posted about Hulkageddon in a public forum. You TOLD the Hulk Pilots the event was going ahead.

    As a non-pirate player myself, I know the rough details and scope of the event, I have taken what I hope are appropriate precautions (that you even discussed in the Hulkageddon II post) and I hope that if I do contribute to the event, it will be to the “Most ships lost to a single Hulk pilot” category.

    C&P is a GOOD read for the so-called carebear player!

    Best of luck on the event, Helicity and well done for organising something in Eve.

    • Why thank you! I’m glad to see there are rational people around still, it’s a pretty far stretch to go from “I dont like what someone does in a game” to “you are hitler”.

      Of course this sort of reaction makes suicide ganking ALL the more fun :D

    • Winterjack Says:

      As hulkpilot says. I’m a barge pilot myself.

      Not only on the forums. There’s a website. It was advertised in most trade hubs.
      Hey if you fail to pay attention, whose fault is that?

  4. Real miners live in null-sec anyway… Feel free to come to 0.0 and gank anytime!

    • Just another carebear =) Says:

      Hehe, true – and actually, if you live in null sec, with a well organized alliance, it can be pretty safe too!

  5. The rage incited by that comment: classic.

    Welcome to the Jungle, Ms. Whitefeather.

  6. Vigo Larcen Says:

    “Our Sisters are dedicated to love, honor and respect all life and all people” except for video game suicide gankers who are clearly the scum of the Known Universe.

    I do so love internet hypocrisy. :D

  7. Ryan S. Fortney Says:

    I welcome suicide gankers. Mining is mundane and a little explosion here or there can spice things up a bit!

  8. apparently she isnt subbed atm ….. still, keeping “Brighde blackwolf” on buddylist just in case -_-

  9. My corp is full of “imbeciles”, ohh noes!!!
    Let me clear up a few things for you, as you seem to be one of those mistaken carebears who just “doesn’t understand”

    All of our T1 mods and dessies are produced for us at cost, using minerals that are refined from loot we gather off ships we make go boom.

    We corp insure these dessies, so that the majority of the ISK comes right back to us.

    The loot drops and salvage that we recover from the Hulks we pop MORE than covers all 5-6 of our dessies used, so we actually PROFIT from this.

    Do we do it for profit? Of course not, we do it for fun.
    What makes it fun? Getting hatemails, hate convo’s and in your case, hate blogs about it. Wouldn’t be nearly as much fun otherwise.

    You cannot change or control what a person’s actions will be, however you CAN change or control your reactions to them. Maybe if you guys would stop whining about it so much, a lot of the drive would die.

    Another very important point.
    90% of more of the Hulks we gank in high sec are MACRO MINING.
    The players aren’t even there. This is prohibited according to the Eve-Online EULA. What we do is NOT against the EULA and is perfectly legit game mechanics.

    If you want to get technical, you could consider us the police of the Eve-Online EULA.

    Now on a more sincere note.

    There are PLENTY of ways to avoid being suicide ganked. First of all, always have your ship moving. Orbit the roid that your mining instead of sitting still. Don’t MACRO! If you see anything decloak near you or approach on top of you, warp out.

    Don’t mine in systems very close to a low sec where known pirates are running these operations, and if you do get ganked in a system, don’t continue to mine in the same system. It amazes me how many times we’ve ganked the same pilot over and over in the same exact system.

  10. Wait, a nun with nerdrage?! Awesome!

  11. WHOSE RESPONSIBLE THIS???

  12. Die Warzau Says:

    Congrats man. Only one post to get from you to Hitler. That is definitely +10 Internets for you, and IMHO should carry some reward in EVE as well. Redeem all confirmed comparisons of you to Hitler for a brand new Hulk! Keep the emo tears coming. And stay away from my AFK Hulk, which mines between the times of and in the system. Otherwise, good luck with the campaign.

  13. Another successful invocation of Godwin’s law. By supposed “video gaming nuns” no less. This will be dealt with.

    In all seriousness, though, I don’t get it. We’re a pretty noob bunch of guys, and we’ve had fun ganking hulks in highsec, ganking hulks in CVA space, and ganking hulks in wormholes. We’ve also had a measure of “fun” mining in wormholes (it’s a lot more profitable than getting yet another suicide brutix blown up by concord), taking potshots at people in lowsec, and getting blobbed by gatecampers. Honestly? I think it’s the mindset. People who are more likely to treat a video game as A VIDEO GAME are more likely to enjoy all aspects of it, and whine less when legitimate game mechanics cause them loss.

    This “Sister Julie” probably whines when somebody takes her queen in a game of chess, too.

    Fly deadly

    /Meats

  14. “What makes it fun? Getting hatemails, hate convo’s and in your case, hate blogs about it”

    Totally.

    Theres this kid at my school who left his BMX unlocked at the shop so weve stashed it. He keeps crying about it and begging for it back before his dad finds out but we told him – dont ride what u cant afford to loose :D

    • Someone you dont know Says:

      “Theres this kid at my school who left his BMX unlocked at the shop so weve stashed it.”
      Another datapoint to claim “most griefers, trolls and gankers have in real life similiar personality to that in game”.

      Real life stealing? How nice. Remember thief, you are not anonymous on net. :)

  15. WOW,

    I am a carebear and I want to go gank Ms. Whitefeather. Not only did you get the Hitler call out, but you also got called a member of the KKK. That is just damn impressive.

    I didn’t realize that playing in the sandbox could cause someone that amount of emotional trauma. Doesn’t she realize that ganking is not an exploit, it’s part of the game. If it was illegal, it wouldn’t be allowed. Nothing is broken. If anything it’s a great exercise in natural selection. Weed out the week and stupid, and all you have left is the strong.

    You are right, it is very easy to mine safely, just by paying attention. Don’t alt tab and surf the web, look at your surrondings, and look in local. Holy crap, it’s not rocket science (although I do have that trained to lvl 3).

    Best of luck to you in the upcoming Hulkageddon. I know where all my corps miner’s are going to be (safely docked).

    Sim

  16. the only reason people do this kind of stuff is because they cant get a kill in a one on one basis, just a bunch of kids and other adults who live in moms basement, with no life and no gf, and couldnt get any from a hooker, well ill be hunting you………..lets see if you can hide well cause we know you cant fight………lol.

  17. I agree with James K so hard, I might get someone pregnant. It seems unavoidable in Western culture today that, once we reach the limits of our intellect to win an argument that cannot be won (usually, because we are wrong), we start slinging old Hitler around.

    Props on the KKK, however — I don’t see that one often. Especially since what they’re planning in the game is open piracy with warning given in advance. Anybody in a newbie corp, player corp, or who reads the forums should know about it. Flying a hulk, you must have some kind of interaction with the world. And if you don’t, maybe pissing you off isn’t such a terrible thing. Put some life back into the game for you.

    It’s hardly griefing or Hitler/KKK-esque (seriously, stop doing that, you make people with brains vomit) to give advanced warning very publicly of a roleplay-type event you plan to host in an online game.

    That said, I’m a miner, so for that week I plan to have a small, fast ship with warp stabs outfitted for salvaging the hulks out from under the pirates. Cov Ops maybe. Muahaha!

    Yes, I fully expect to die repeatedly for it. But it’s going to be FUN!

  18. Just another carebear =) Says:

    —–QUOTE:—–
    “What makes it fun? Getting hatemails, hate convo’s and in your case, hate blogs about it”

    Totally.
    —–UNQUOTE—–

    You know there’s medication for that, right?

    • for the record, i think there is a pretty significant difference between blowing up some pixels and stealing someone’s bicycle, one is a game, the other is harassment.

      • keenfella Says:

        for sure

        Carebear tears are sweet and in EVE I get a crying mail to show my mates as well. May be I shoud tell the kid to send me a mail if he wants his BMX back. Thanks for the idea :D

  19. Real Miner Says:

    Go for it guys, your last event raised mineral prices to a reasonable level and improved my profit margin no end not to mention the fact that you discouraged a shed load of pseudo miners that have been eating into my profits for months. Lets face it the moment you undock your at risk so to me your no more than another natural hazard in New Eden if you catch me I didn’t have my eye on the ball.

    Best of luck, your the best thing for my wallet since the last big war and Dominion’s deployment.

  20. Undeadhead Says:

    Always cool to see stuff like this organized in EVE, nice job guys. As a miner myself I’ve lost 2 Hulks just in the last week, but I have also avoided numerous gank attempts in the same amount of time. This is what I feel Eve is all about, the danger, the excitement and the lack of restriction. But I think most miners miss the importance of this ingredient in EVE that keeps the Market stable for people mining ore, that being the demand for your supply. Its the cycle of life in EVE, the more ships popped and modules destroys results in a steady or increased demand for minerals to rebuild those ships and modules. LOL, gotta love the Hitler and KKK remarks cause you know losing a few ships in a game definitely compares to genocide.

    No matter how valid you feel your cause maybe or how valid it is, crying and whining rarely helps.

  21. Zap Rowsdower Says:

    Just to play devil’s advocate for a moment, so people in high sec mine afk, so what? While I can understand messing with mining gangs that do it to sell isk, why bother with the lone guy that is making his money so that he can buy a ship or is trying to make money for his corp that he wants to start up? You paid for the game and so did that high sec miner who for one reason or another doesn’t want to take that dive into lowsec or nullsec, so why bother them? And why do you care if they are mining afk? CCP didn’t hire you to police if someone is mining afk, so who are you to take it upon yourselves to make sure I am at my computer playing the game?

    Now that that “tirade” is over, I just put this out there because I figure some of the victims to be may very well read this page and want to ask these questions, only they will be more whiny about it and want you to stop and make the hurt go away. But perhaps by putting these questions out there beforehand might get them to shut up before they get tears all over their keyboard and flood the blog here.

    I mine myself, sometimes afk even, but this is due to me having to care for an elderly relative and I don’t want to spend time logging off and on all day. But I fully understand the risk behind it and I plan accordingly. But for those that want to whine, if you wanna keep that ship, keep your eye on it or leave it docked!

  22. Has it occured to anyone that Julie’s blogsite’s domain name is noprisonersnomercy.com ?

    As Alanis Morisette would say, “isn’t it ironic? Dontcha think?”

    I think I’ll make a visit over there and spank her carebear ass a little. What is the fun of Eve without the risk?

  23. You Got Me Says:

    OK you got me, fair is fair it was a good strike and would have been a pleasure to watch if it hadn’t been my Hulk going up but such is life in New Eden. You undock your at risk.

    I would feel better about it all though if you stopped pretending this was some high moral crusade against afk miners. Be honest and admit you just enjoy killing easy targets because lets face it theres no way a Hulk can tank 6 or 7 destroyers even with optimum fit.

    I won’t hold it against you after all this is just a game and your just another natural hazard. Its only your failure to admit that your addicted to a bit of easy killboard padding and griefing that I find annoying not the fact that your doing it.

    After all if you can’t admit the truth here when no one can trace you or knows you it’s more than a bit sad.

    I bet you never consider running a Griefergeddon.

    • it is what it is, a gankfest, like i said in the eve-o thread already this is not an altruistic friendly game-improving activity. it’s a low-down and mean spirited event, and the macro miner thing just happens to be an interesting side effect.

      “I won’t hold it against you after all this is just a game and your just another natural hazard. Its only your failure to admit that your addicted to a bit of easy killboard padding and griefing that I find annoying not the fact that your doing it.””

      Maybe you should check things out before you open your mouth:”http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Helicity+Boson

      that’s MY killboard, and guess what? I never even really gank hulks with this toon.

      Dont make so many assumptions when you really have no idea ;)

  24. Swearte Widfarend Says:

    Although I did not participate, the times I was in empire I looked for the local tears, and smiled. I’ve lost my share of ships, and even T1 barges.

    My personal frustration with the outpouring of tears was that so many of those angry players use the best excuse they can think of (you are stupid), when in all likelyhood at least 30% of the gankers in HGII are frighteningly intelligent, and Helicity you’ve always seemed to have a solid grasp of the english language.

    I hope you all had fun – I enjoyed reading about it and watching the vids.

  25. brian mcdonald Says:

    most pvp in eve is pretty weak. the way things work in eve is that a small group of nonames with crappy ships can gang up on and kill with relative ease an expert in an expensive ship. for a group of dessies to crunch a mining ship it about as sporting a contest as kicking a puppy would be. takes a special kind of git to be “proud” of or amused by such activities.

    • like faction warfare pilots in their talentless blobs?

      three kinds of people participated really:
      -real, actual, solo/small gang pvpers/pirates from respected pvp organizations
      -talentless opportunistic blob pilots
      -miner alts who wanted to take a walk on the dark side

      They all have their own motivations, but everyone had fun. And there is a large number of replies on this site, in forum threads and my mailbox from miners and other carebears that also enjoyed it. Because it makes the game more exciting when *something* actually happens.

  26. “PvP is great and I am a big PvP fan – .just so long as both parties participating in it agree to it – And agreeing to it DOESN’T happen simply by logging on to Eve Online.”

    Then you run into this problem:

    “Why won’t anyone 1v1 my curse???!!!”

    Game isn’t meant to be fair.

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